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What is sexual harassment? What's the difference between sexual harassment and just being an idiot? I mean, if my father didn't harass my mother, I wouldn't be here! I mean, I understand some sexual harassment.. if a man is your boss and says, "Hey, sleep with me, or you're fired." That's sexual harassment. And that's the only thing that's sexual harassment! Everything else falls under "Just trying to get laid." You can't put a man in jail for that! I don't care how hard he tries, that's all he was trying to do! Anita Hill started this whole thing. It's all about looks, you know? Because if Clarence Thomas looked like Denzel Washington, this would have never happened! She'd be all, "Oh, stop it, Clarence, you nasty! Your fine self!" So, what's sexual harassment, when an ugly man wants some? "Oh, he ugly! Call the police! Call the authority!"
#metoo
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Look at the thirsty, horny men who are conflating their desire to ask women on dates with predatory sexual harassment. lol so rich. I love it, keep it coming. It reminds me that socbros are no smarter than someone's drunken uncle who wears a Make America Great Again cap.
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Look at the thirsty, horny men who are conflating their desire to ask women on dates with predatory sexual harassment. lol so rich. I love it, keep it coming. It reminds me that socbros are no smarter than someone's drunken uncle who wears a Make America Great Again cap.
Is this your first moral panic? It's best to not to believe everything you hear without evidence. Earlier ITT someone actually complained that she was harassed simply because an unattractive man propositioned her.
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Some instances of sexual harassment are beyond dispute. E.g. Harvey Weinstein, asking subordinates for sexual favors in exchange for promotion and the like.
There are some instances, however, of women citing examples on me too that just sound like unwanted passes. Here's one http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41641264
The relevant part:
"We were in an Italian restaurant in New York, just after we'd finished working on a story. I was an ambitious producer who'd just been in Manhattan for the Republican convention.
Most of the team had gone but a colleague and I were the last two left and we were having dinner.
We'd gone to the East Village and in a dimly lit Italian restaurant, I made small talk about George W Bush and John Kerry.
Then he said it.
"I'm unbelievably sexually attracted to you. I can't stop thinking about you."
I dropped my fork and it bounced on the plate, the spaghetti still woven around it.
This was a colleague twice my age, well-respected and with a girlfriend. I had experienced sexism in the workplace before, but not in such an overt way.
I can't even remember what I said - but it was something all too polite, as I tried to change the conversation. He continued talking about how beautiful I was, as I ate the pasta as fast I could. "
Without additional context it is not clear this is harassment. She doesn't indicate that he supervised her or even had more prestige within her profession. The fact that he has a girlfriend, while unethical (although we don't know the nature of said relationship) seems irrelevant to harassment. He's older, but that alone doesn't equal harassment as she was 25 at the time.
He's direct, but not crude. He doesn't mention body parts or make direct reference to sexual acts.
It doesn't sound like he led her on promising to discuss her career.
I'm not trying to troll but am I missing something? Without additional information or assumptions is this an obvious case of sexual harassment? -
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What is sexual harassment? What's the difference between sexual harassment and just being an idiot? I mean, if my father didn't harass my mother, I wouldn't be here! I mean, I understand some sexual harassment.. if a man is your boss and says, "Hey, sleep with me, or you're fired." That's sexual harassment. And that's the only thing that's sexual harassment! Everything else falls under "Just trying to get laid." You can't put a man in jail for that! I don't care how hard he tries, that's all he was trying to do! Anita Hill started this whole thing. It's all about looks, you know? Because if Clarence Thomas looked like Denzel Washington, this would have never happened! She'd be all, "Oh, stop it, Clarence, you nasty! Your fine self!" So, what's sexual harassment, when an ugly man wants some? "Oh, he ugly! Call the police! Call the authority!"That was 21 years ago. Would Chris be permitted to tell these jokes on SNL today? I doubt it. He'd be crucified by the moral police if he did.
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Why did you selectively copy this part from the entire article?
She has two other instances to narrate as well:
"A few years ago a married former colleague of mine began sending me messages containing explicit details of his sexual desires."
"The two examples I shared are just a few I've experienced over the years - I forgot to mention the knock on my hotel door from a married colleague on a trip, which followed a suggestive text.
In that case I ran into the bathroom and called a friendly male colleague - who told me to phone him again if I felt threatened."He's direct, but not crude. He doesn't mention body parts or make direct reference to sexual acts.
It doesn't sound like he led her on promising to discuss her career.
I'm not trying to troll but am I missing something? Without additional information or assumptions is this an obvious case of sexual harassment? -
Why did you selectively copy this part from the entire article?
She has two other instances to narrate as well:
"A few years ago a married former colleague of mine began sending me messages containing explicit details of his sexual desires."
"The two examples I shared are just a few I've experienced over the years - I forgot to mention the knock on my hotel door from a married colleague on a trip, which followed a suggestive text.
In that case I ran into the bathroom and called a friendly male colleague - who told me to phone him again if I felt threatened."He's direct, but not crude. He doesn't mention body parts or make direct reference to sexual acts.
It doesn't sound like he led her on promising to discuss her career.
I'm not trying to troll but am I missing something? Without additional information or assumptions is this an obvious case of sexual harassment?I selectively posted because that one example was not an obvious case of sexual harassment. The example I did not post, sending colleague unsolicited explicit e-mail crosses the line in my view. Therefore there was no need to post the second example. I am not saying sexual harassment does not occur or that most women are lying, or even that the woman's claims should not believed. My point was that there do be some instances of women claiming harassment what appears to be unwanted advances.
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That's a part that I can't believe that one has to explain to people who have been reading at a high level for decades: discussing what is sexual harassment DOES NOT MEAN believing sexual harassment is a fad, or that women are liars. It means that some instances of alleged harassment (again, we are talking about "some", not "all") are not really harassment, but just misguided attempts at asking for sexual favors.
(Truth be told, there are some people around here who believe that all women are liars when accounting for sexual harassment.)
I selectively posted because that one example was not an obvious case of sexual harassment. The example I did not post, sending colleague unsolicited explicit e-mail crosses the line in my view. Therefore there was no need to post the second example. I am not saying sexual harassment does not occur or that most women are lying, or even that the woman's claims should not believed. My point was that there do be some instances of women claiming harassment what appears to be unwanted advances.
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The issue is that when women are speaking of sexual harassment, men here (I presume) are speaking of instances which lie on one side of the spectrum of actions that constitute harassment. Women also know that varying degree of actions exist. But men shouldn't be the ones deciding which action should be talked about first. That is what many people are saying here. When women share their stories, why are men defining the terms of the debate? These instances that men want to talk about first has nothing to do about women or their comfort.It is about men losing their entitlements and women can choose not to talk about it first.I hope they do.
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Yes, yes, the irrationality and hysteria of all those confused, dishonest girls complaining about sexual harassment. 2017 anyone? How about 1917? 1817? Going once, going twice...
Keep going until you are all the way gone. Thanks.The most hysterical poster ITT so far claims to be a dude.
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We've created a culture where every single person believes they are entitled to the status of oppressed victim. A woman gets hit on by someone she finds unattractive? She's a victim of patriarchy and sexism. (Literally comparable to chattel slavery, according to some posters in this thread.) A black person doesn't get a bl*wjob with his Starbucks order and it's institutional discrimination and microaggressions. A white guy doesn't get some job he applied for, it's reverse racism. An Asian-American, who collectively comprise the wealthiest, most educated group in America, is victim of their own success because he didn't get into Harvard. Everyone is a victim these days. Everyone gets a gold star and a victim trophy.
The problem with that line of thinking is that if everyone is a victim, then no one is a victim. And that's the point that's been made about 10,000 times in this post and missed by you professional female victyms and white knights. Some of these hysterical overreactions obscure the legitimate instances of sexual harassment that everyone agrees are really, really bad.
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Well said. It looks like we're all perpetrators, too:
Dear Men: It’s You, Too
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/opinion/metoo-sexual-harassment-men.htmlWe've created a culture where every single person believes they are entitled to the status of oppressed victim. A woman gets hit on by someone she finds unattractive? She's a victim of patriarchy and sexism. (Literally comparable to chattel slavery, according to some posters in this thread.) A black person doesn't get a bl*wjob with his Starbucks order and it's institutional discrimination and microaggressions. A white guy doesn't get some job he applied for, it's reverse racism. An Asian-American, who collectively comprise the wealthiest, most educated group in America, is victim of their own success because he didn't get into Harvard. Everyone is a victim these days. Everyone gets a gold star and a victim trophy.
The problem with that line of thinking is that if everyone is a victim, then no one is a victim. And that's the point that's been made about 10,000 times in this post and missed by you professional female victyms and white knights. Some of these hysterical overreactions obscure the legitimate instances of sexual harassment that everyone agrees are really, really bad. -
That's a part that I can't believe that one has to explain to people who have been reading at a high level for decades: discussing what is sexual harassment DOES NOT MEAN believing sexual harassment is a fad, or that women are liars. It means that some instances of alleged harassment (again, we are talking about "some", not "all") are not really harassment, but just misguided attempts at asking for sexual favors.
(Truth be told, there are some people around here who believe that all women are liars when accounting for sexual harassment.)Above is good summary of my thoughts.
I'm 100% pro-feminist and am highly aware of the seriousness and pervasiveness of sexual exploitation and misconduct around the world. But surely openly discussing the puritanical aspects (note: "aspects" does not mean "all of") of contemporary feminism is not anti-feminist.
This read was a breath of fresh air for me. A feminist that thinks that a lot modern feminism, on campus in particular, is sexually paranoid and tends to magnify relatively small power disparities. Without ignoring or minimizing the reality of sexual exploitation and misconduct, she doesn't think it is anti-woman, ignorant, and "creepy" to ask questions like, "But how do you know they’re unwanted [sexual advances] until you try?" Funny too.
laurakipnis.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Sexual-Paranoia-Strikes-Academe.pdf